56. What Hostage Negotiations Teach Us About Human Behaviour

"Words can change lives"

In this episode of the Really Good Conversations podcast, Amy speaks with Steve York; a former police negotiator, tactical commander, and now corporate risk advisor and negotiation coach.

Steve’s career has taken him from life-or-death hostage situations to high-stakes corporate boardrooms.

In this conversation he shares what these intense moments have taught him about how people behave under pressure, how power works in a room, and how to influence outcomes through calm, presence and insight - not force.

They explore the role of ego, emotion, and self-interest in negotiation, and why understanding what drives people is key to finding resolution. Steve also shares how body language, silence, and listening can all shift the dynamic in your favour.

Key Topics Discussed:

What prompted Steve to train in hostage negotiations
Why self-interest sits at the heart of all negotiation
How ego and emotion can derail conversations
The power of silence and body language
Why “win-win” outcomes are often a myth
What hostage situations reveal about everyday human behaviour
Practical tactics for handling high-stakes or high-pressure conversations

Whether you're negotiating at work, managing conflict at home, or just trying to communicate more effectively, the principles Steve outlines are widely applicable - and surprisingly simple.

Find out more about Steve York

Website: https://www.steveyork.com.au/

LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steve-york-64785a237/?originalSubdomain=au

Episode Transcript:

We touch on gun violence and suicide in this episode, so this is a trigger warning for listeners.

Amy

Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast. Today I am joined by Steve York, a former police negotiator, tactical commander and corporate risk advisor. Steve spent over 20 years in New South Wales police force, leading hundreds of high-stake negotiations and helping reshape how dangerous situations are approached. Since leaving the force, he's worked across Europe and Australia in corporate security, risk management and negotiation coaching.

Welcome to the podcast, Steve.

Steve

Thank you very much. It's good to be here.

Amy
I am keen to dive into your world, which I just feel that those listening and myself would have no idea what goes on behind the scenes in the police force, in high state negotiations. It's so far removed from our normal day to day life.

So firstly, can you take us back over 20 years ago and tell us what was the catalyst that made you train to be a negotiator when you were in the police force?

Steve

Well, it's interesting. I was in the tactical team carrying a sawn off shotgun and wearing the black gear in the balaclava. And we went to an incident looking for a person that had killed a police officer. And we were going to a few places to try and find him. We had a warrant and he was lawful. We went in and into this house and I turned to the first door and I pointed my shotgun to the general part of the room.

And for whatever reason, the person who was lying in bed reached down and grabbed something that was about, I don't know, probably about 45cm long. And my initial thoughts were that it was a gun. And as I brought my gun up, my partner came in through the door and turned and did the same thing as I was going to do. And I saw my partner going for his gun as I recognised it was an umbrella that he was picking up.

All I could get out was no.

And he changed his, what he was doing. And we went into a different mode, you know, of basically getting the person down. Wow. And it was about that point that I realised that this was pretty dangerous work, you know, someone could get killed and it could be me. And I thought to myself, there's got to be better ways to do this.

And at the same time, I did find a couple of guys that were thinking about how to do it better. They were working from some work that had been done in the FBI and in the New York City police. And so I joined them and helped develop protocols for first response to major incidents like that and change it from armed aggressive response to surround and negotiate. there's all police were telling me other people that they argued it for year, for every year, that we'd lose evidence and you know, people wouldn't have the same respect and all that sort of stuff. B

ut I remember the first day we used it, it was on the, we wanted a simultaneous raid on, I think it was 12 houses, what about 11? And so we had people set up in the room in the headquarters and basically we sent police out, surrounded the houses and we called each of the house out through the front door using negotiators. Wow. And it worked. Everyone came out. Did they, did we lose evidence? We probably did.

Because I've had more time to move things around.

They put drugs down the toilet, that sort of thing. But for every action like that, there's a forensic reaction. We can test the water in the sewer pipes and all sorts of stuff. We can do all that to prove that substances were there. So there's other ways to do it, but not as quick and not as cheap.

Amy

It's fascinating because even that first example when you had that moment in that bedroom, you you were in such a high pressure, need to react instantly. And then yet a gun could have gone off in that scenario, either with the person in the room or yourself or your colleague. And then you've got a completely different situation on your hand to deal with. And you often think when you do, you know, as a novice member of the public and you hear the stories and someone has been shot immediately, you're like, "Well, they can't speak now and tell you what's going on." There's an element you think, well, if you want to find out what they're doing.

Steve
Yeah, and the thing is it had happened. Yeah. Only recently before police had shot a bloke by the name of Gundy and it was a matter of false identification. God. And that was a real watershed and it sort of helped what we were doing in the background about changing the policy. And we eventually did change the policy and it was done in the national police guidelines for high risk situations.

But since the Lynch siege, basically I'd say that we've gone back to what we used to do.

Amy

I was going to ask if you think where we are now today, obviously your career was over 20 years and then you've left the force quite some time ago now. Yes, I was going to ask if it's then continued in that negotiation direction, but no, we've gone back to the heavy-handed approach.

Steve

Well, see people, particularly politicians, like to see things happening and things happening in a manner that the public can understand. And waiting and talking isn't good for them. They want to see action. And so they always get nervous and want to hurry us up and all that sort of stuff. And of course, it's not always the best thing in relation to the incident. And I think that's where we're at right now that the patients from the politicians is very low.

Amy
Wow, well, we could talk about this for quite some time. This is really fascinating, as I said, as novices on the streets have no idea about what goes on behind the scenes.

But I wanted to talk to you a bit about the reality of you've moved more into the corporate space now. But as you have negotiated with armed criminals and corporate executives, what do you see that those environments have in common?

Steve

Well, it's all about what the individual is aiming for. It's about self-interest.

What's their self-interest in the matter? And invariably it comes down to power, money, position, influence. Now, about who you're dealing with. It's about you can't talk a criminal who has a hostage in relation to where is he going to be in a month's time because the reason you're talking there is because there's a preordained has to go to jail, right?

And I think that's a harder negotiation. You negotiate that someone's gonna go from here to jail and that's the best it can be. In a corporate setting, usually there's self-interest. Usually it's about bonus or something like that. Power, influence, all that sort of thing. But there's a million, there's a billion alternatives to resolve it. But people don't take the time to resolve it because they go on past results or past incidents or past, you know, this is what's happened in them in in this situation before. And people tend to go to, you know, what works. I mean, that's really good. What has worked in the past is a good benchmark. It's about what situationally is better for this person.

and has been in the past. So in other words, you'd do a lot of creative thinking to try and get through. But the bottom line, it's about speaking between people to achieve a goal. Right? And I say to all my students, first of all, go to self-interest. What is in it for them? Why are they doing it? What's the background? Because some criminals only do it so they can get a better stature in jail.

They hold up to the police for a longer period of time they come back to jail more famous than they were. Conversely if they fold early they'll be seen as weak and they'll get eaten back in jail.

Amy

How interesting.

What a different world. And how much do you see emotion and ego showing up in negotiations?

Steve

Yeah, all the time.

And sometimes it's on the negotiator side. All of us, I'll include myself in the old team of negotiators, but we all had our egos. I mean, it's about doing the job properly and doing it so people would respect what you've done and admire what you've done. I think the funny thing I kept on reminding my team was that we don't get paid anymore. There's no money in it for us other than overtime sometimes. And that's very little.

So what else is there to work for? So it's gotta be around those things of ego and the way you look at yourself and the way that you operate within a team, the way that senior officers would look at you in respect to your skills, those sort of things for future work. It is about self-interest. And so I'm doing it for self-interest.

Here I am talking to someone who's gonna commit suicide, say, and you're in the rain and you're freezing and you're hungry and you're talking to this person who you know through your schools and your training that at some point maybe two or three hours they're going to come back and you get be able to go help them but you can't make it faster.

Amy

Yeah, in that moment you're like, I'm cold, I'm hungry, I just want to get home, can you just get down now?

Steve
But you've got to keep going. And you've got to keep going in the methodology and the practical ways that we deal with those things and ignore all those other environmental constraints.

Amy

Obviously people who are in that particular example, know, it may be in a position of suicide, you know, that is in a really delicate frame of mind.

Steve

Yeah, right. And you've got to recognise in them that they're in a crisis situation. They're not themselves. They've been driven by whatever could be drugs, alcohol, could be family, could be so many things, you know, and I've heard them all, I think, but you've got to let them tell you. And so even that takes time and that takes you got to slow it down and for whole lot of reasons. And one of them is

The more you slow it down, the more they have a chance. The body has a chance to re-stabilise and to, you know, lower temperatures, lower heartbeat, lower brain activity, and you bring it into a more normal talking arrangement. But to do that, the negotiators got to monitor themselves and they've got to control themselves. They've got to speak slower and lower than the other person. They've got to keep their actions slow.

and that all those things have to operate on this side to get the response out of that side.

Amy
When one's in this situation of negotiation, how can you assess who really has the power or influence in a negotiation?

Steve

It's around equalising the power as much as you can. Nothing's ever equal, but equalising as much as you can. A person who takes a hostage. The hostage is the point of power at that point. That's where the power is held. You do this or otherwise I'll kill the hostage, right?

The way that they're dealing with trying to get the behaviours from someone else is through the power of having control of the hostage. Take away the hostage. If they say, I'm going to kill myself. Well, they've got still a human at a hostage and everything else still applies. So it's not very often that you're not dealing with someone threatening someone implied or explicit. And it could be themselves. Other than that, you get things like product contaminations, you know, like

That sort of threat against companies and so forth, extortion. And the power is, I'm going to do something if you don't do something. I'm going to poison the product on the shelf if you don't do something. And that's sort of, that's still against somebody, but unknown. We don't know who's going to pick up the product and drink it or read it. But it's still using that threat as power.

Amy

When you enter a room yourself, what are you scanning for within the first 30 seconds?

Steve
So I did this, I do this especially in, well I did do it in lecturing. I was able to walk into a room and pick who the troublemakers are gonna be within seven seconds. Sometimes I was really surprised they weren't the person. They were just extroverted or just were a bit left afield. But I reckon 90 % of time I was right.

Amy

Wow. Would you verbalise that or just a mental note?

Steve

You sort of would look and think, right, OK

It's a natural note, but I did start doing things to those people almost immediately. was like task them with things, you know, can you help us get this or can you do that?

So, in other words, try and bring them in as being part of the process. But you really know they're trouble when they just go, no, I'm not doing it. So, you know, right, this is going to be trouble.

Amy

I feel like you're needed in probably classrooms with kids around the world. When you said you scanned for the troublemaker, I suddenly thought, oh, that'd be me at school. But it wasn't, anything, all it was was my friends and I chatting, chit chatting, you know.

Well, this is what I was going to get to, actually, when you're saying, you know, I am thinking, if you're a listener, do you feel you are taking in what people saying?

When you're giving the example of those chatterbox around the room, it would be interesting to think, are they retaining any other information that anyone else they're talking to is actually saying?

Steve

I think individuals would just depend. I know that I've got good retention. That's one thing I have got as a good memory. And I do remember things that other people don't. And is it because I'm listening and I'm not generating things that you sort of when you generate something, even you're trying to ask a question, are you missing things as you go through that thought process? I don't know.

But I have talked, as I teach my students, say, the one thing you've got to do is build relationships as a negotiator. that building relationships is great training for negotiating. Because you ask someone, like for example, and I do this all the time, So I know the barista, I know who serves me, I know the restaurant.

I know the people in the restaurant. Why? Because I've taken an effort to learn about them. And so I don't get a discount on my coffee. But as I walk down the road, if they see me, that coffee is waiting for me. And that's because we had a relationship. And so good negotiators, I find, have relationships with all those types of people. Very often junior people, very often you know, if you look at it subordinate to the people, but a strong relationship nonetheless. And that's because of the putting in time and investing in people. And I do a lot of that.

Amy

I'd love to get your insights on body language as well as a topic and how do you see that body language and presence play a part in negotiation?

Steve

Well, they're a key component, to be absolutely honest. I don't believe, mean, people do believe that if you hold your hand across your mouth, you're hiding something. If you're holding your chin, you're actually listening. There's all these sort of signals, but they say 70 % of communication is body language. And I would say it's at least that. And you can tell.

because we really take signals from people, whether it's right to go down that street or whether it's, you know, you're on the right track or, you know, people going, crossing their hands saying it's not the right thing. There's international symbols basically that get across a message. You don't have to have the language. You just have the signal. And also there's things like dress.

So, you know, if you walked in a room and everyone was dressed in tuxedos, you would assume it's a formal occasion, which requires different behaviour. But if you walked in the room and there was a band playing and everyone was dressed up in, you know, whatever, different behaviours can happen. And it's like seeing something like having the ability to see the person you're negotiating with and they keep looking over the left shoulder.

Amy
Yeah, things that you think are obvious.

Steve

It's that you're going to say, we have to worry about what's over his left shoulder. Is someone else telling you what to say? So there's all those things happen. so body language is absolutely important. And I like a good meter away from the other person. And I've been to functions where, especially in central Europe actually, where people come out really close to you and start speaking to you.

And basically they walk me around the room because I just keep taking a step back. They take a step forward and then it takes my concentration away.

Good words, right? Or close it, like, in your personal...

So they call that like it's in the danger zone because that's in the attack zone and this is all about the old reptile brain at the top of your spine that deals with danger. Someone working or operating in that area, your old brain is saying, you know, this is really dangerous. They could grab us by the throat.

Amy
And do you think for you personally being in the police force even more so anyone right up in your face is even more uncomfortable?

I think I'm just more sensitive to it.

Yeah, gosh, yeah, you wouldn't think of that.

Steve

Yeah, and you think about things like a person gets on the bus in Oxford Street, Sydney. That's 9am and they walk down and they sit next to you, even though there's a couple of other seats around. You go, you know, it's a bit awkward. Yeah.

Amy

I've got to admit, I have got off buses and trains and the underground in London when I've just thought somebody's got on and I just thought, for whatever reason, it just made me feel really uncomfortable. And then you start to think about, you know, the things that could, you know, the mind goes into overdrive of things that could happen. So you just think I'm just going to get off would be the best.

Steve
But if you got on that bus at 12 o'clock at night and someone walked down and sat next to you, it's a completely different level of heightened awareness. And I suggest you would certainly get off the bus or make a complaint.

Amy

Yeah, you're on the phone often on the phone to my husband, like, I'm here, I'm here, stay awake, are on the phone? But this sort of does actually lead me to how you have did keep calm or perhaps still keep calm and focused when you are in these high-stake life or death situations. You know, as we've been chatting and what you've been sharing with us, you know, unless, yes, you are in the forces, this isn't what normal people everyday people are facing with you have been some real high pressure situations.

So how does one stay calm in that situation?

Steve

Look, it's very, you're trained for it, but it's still very, very tough and it takes a lot of self-control and a lot of concentration and, you know, working as part of a team to be able to lean on people when you're in, you're the focus, lean on people to assist and so forth. But it is, it is a skill that all the negotiators had to learn. And they all responded in different ways.

One of the good negotiators, she often was having a foot up on the desk and the phone in the hands of leaning back in the chair And it looks like she was absolutely relaxed, but she was wound tighter than a watch You know, she was she was really stressed, but you wouldn't have picked it. It's just the training that that really Gets to do with it and we we trained in scenario based training. So we used to set up Scenarios that were well when I wrote them that the negotiators used to say the real event was easier than the scenario. thank God. You write it harder so that people are getting a taste of what it's like for your adrenaline, all the chemicals, again, from the amygdala going to the brain and to other places and saying, you know, your heart's got to pump faster because we're going in a battle and, you know, all those sort of things going on, which is you can't control. It's like you think about surgeons going in for surgery.

Steve
They've got to be able to control all their emotions to be able to do what they do effectively because going in and saying, know, oh, this blood is terrible. You know, can't operate when there's so much, you know, it just just can't happen. Right. And airline pilots, I mean, there's a lot of a lot of vocations that are exactly the same. Just got to deal with the emotions.

Amy

A lot of people listening here maybe you know can't quite relate to being in these sorts of situations. So if you had to teach negotiation to a 10 year old, what would you tell them to focus on first?

Steve

That's a big question. the first thing, would focus on listening and listening for clues and trying to map out the negotiation and where you're starting and where do you want it to end. And then being able to map it in progress about how you're doing and what could be done better. But for a 10-year-old, would be about, for sure, would be about listening.

Amy

I think lot of 10 year olds could do with that and even adults as well. what are some of the common mistakes you see leaders make in negotiations at work?

Steve

Look, I think a lot of leaders forget where they've come from. And I think the negotiation is more about, you you shall do. It's more about using power, positional power, and not really understanding personal power. And you can look at people, you you look at past prime minister and say, has Paul Keating still got power, you know, is he still listened to? And even though he's not a prime minister, he's certainly still got power. still listen to him.

You you might say the same thing about John Howard. Would you say the same thing, you know, about some other prime ministers? When they lose power, they lose everything because all they had was positional power. And they were talking from, you know, being prime minister or president or whatever. And they'd forgotten about the fact that they'd come through a process with a cohort and they forgot about it. I they were just talking from positional power.

Amy

That's an interesting insight that, you know, positional power and personal power. That's really interesting. And how can people become better negotiators in their daily lives? So if we think whether it's in meetings or parenting, marriages or obviously salary negotiations as well, that's often a big one for people.

Steve

Yeah, the salary negotiations is quite a technical sort of negotiation. What can we do to improve? It's going to be around practicing getting to know people. And when you meet someone new, think about it. Think about the questions you would ask if you need to write it down. And you get the more you start asking people and understanding what people do, the broader that that your knowledge becomes as well. I ask people lots of times, what do do when you're not at work? And you get a different answer than you say, do you do? People, especially men, define themselves by their job. I'm a senior sergeant in the police, blah, blah, blah, you know? No one understands what a senior sergeant is really, okay. Well, it must be more than a sergeant, but what is it, you know?

Amy

There's often the phrase I hear, you who are you without your job title?

Steve
Yeah, exactly. if it you, would say, and tell me if I didn't do this, I would say, you know, you got kids, you mean run around by kids, you know, what do they do? They, yeah, we I'm up at four o'clock every morning because we're training to go to the Olympics, you know. That's quite interesting, right? Yeah. You say, poor thing.

Amy

It's funny you mention kids because I do feel that we've got a three and a half year old terrorist that lives in our house. So what would be your tips for me negotiating with a small tiny human terrorist?

Steve

Unfortunately, I'm going to sort of break people's spirits when I tell you this, I've got a daughter who's a far better negotiator than me.

We should have got her on as well to give her side of this.

And the famous one is I was driving home and I was late driving picked up from school. She must have been about five or six. And she said, you better stop and get bread. I go, no, no, I'm running late. Gotta go. No, no, dad. You got to stop and get some bread. Mom will be cranky if you don't stop and get bread. Good idea. Okay. Well, I stopped and she said, when you get out, can I have an ice cream?

Steve
Now see that was a beautiful negotiation, right? Because she committed me to an act before she sort of led me into what was really her self interest. But she combined it with someone else's self interest. And how can you argue that, right? You can say, no, you tricked me. But how can a internationally recognised negotiator say that you tricked me, right? Exactly. That just can't happen.

A five year old and an ice cream.

So in the end I knew that in the progress of the negotiation I could end it very quickly or that negotiation would go on for another 12 hours.

Amy

Yes, and I think that's over our short years of parenting so far. My husband Alex just says never negotiate with terrorists.

Do you think there is always a win-win situation?

Steve

Never, it's utopian. you know, I think that it may be win-win at the second you make the deal, but when you walk away, you find out something and you go, hang on a minute, that affects what I've just done. And that's always happens. So I think it's possible to get to win-win for a split second, but after that, the power shifts, you know. Now, did the person, other person know?

about the situation before they were in a negotiation. Many times, yes. And they just held it in the back of their mind. Time changes everything because you get more information. And it's like you buy a dress online, you bring it home, you think it's wonderful. Everyone says that's wonderful. And it was $10, blah, blah, said, oh, that's a great deal. And you take it down, have coffee with the girlfriends, and they say,

I've seen that dress. Someone was wearing it such a touch, you know, and I saw it in the shop for five dollars on special. So how do you feel about the dress now? So it's about when did you when you take the time to measure it? So when it unwrapped it? Yeah, it was fantastic. Right. So that the negotiation was good. It was a proposal. I accepted. I paid. I did this, did that and got the dress four hours later. It's unacceptable. How do I pack it up and send it back?

And it's because the more information and you took into account other people's feelings, other people's viewpoints. And so this is the problem with win-win negotiation is that shift through time.

Amy
And how do you know when to walk away from something if you are in it? And this probably more might be in business and life negotiations rather than a life or death situation.

Steve

The police can't walk away, right? So that's number one. You know, I've been in situations where I knew that it was going to end badly, still negotiated and, you know, people kill themselves in front of me. You've got to be able to deal with that outcome of a negotiation, right? But in the corporate world, you buy this dress and it's online for 100 bucks. You say, well, will I enter into the negotiation or not?

Online is very restricted, but I suspect that online is going to change. I know my daughter bargained, which is different to negotiation, right? Bargaining, know, bargain in Bali for something. She bargained it down from like 80 baht to 50 baht or something like that. And then she finally said, okay, that was fine. And then she handed 100 baht over to pay for the change. Yeah. You know, it's all about.

And then what did they react? they were dirty, they patted her on the head and said, a, you know, so you go, hmm, they won't be taken by her again, right?

Amy

I think if you're going to be in that market situation, you have to give them the exact amount of money. If you barter them down, if you've got them to like the 50, you have to give them a 50. I don't know if I would have the goal to give them the higher amount and then expect change.

Steve
That's right. But people do that stuff. So is that a good negotiation? No. I call it bargaining because there's no personality in it. There's no relationship. It's single cycle negotiation. that, you know, just bartering for, know, I'll give you this. No, I'll take this. If you started adding things in, look, if I buy two other items.

Can I get that for 50? That's starting to negotiate. What you're starting to do is you're adding other, or it be service, it might be other products, but you're adding to what was offered. But the trick is to be able to leave the negotiation happy to come back the next day. That's the key. If you're not happy to come back the next day, well,

Amy
You know you've maybe shafted someone.

Steve

Yeah, and what's the next white person going to be dealt with? know, it's so there's all these aspects to it. I mean, it's a fascinating subject because everyone does it all the time. Everyone thinks they do it well to an extent that they forget some of the basics. That's why learning negotiation is sort of like forgetting everything you learned and start again because of these aspects and it's around personal relationships.

Amy

Yeah. What have all your years in negotiation taught you about people?

Steve

No one's the same,

I know that. You may think that they're similar, but you know, everyone's different. Everyone's got different motivations and things you've got absolutely no time for or no weight. Other people, it's their life. So that weighting is really got to be understood. And it's fascinating what people do. Not in their normal job. I'm constantly amazed at how people deal with their time how some conduct themselves.

Amy

Gosh, well, that is fascinating, Steve. We could talk at length on so many topics. mean, you were full of stories, I imagine. The amount of experiences and situations that you have been involved in is honestly, know, worlds away from what I could imagine. So thank you for everything you've shared. And I'm going to ask you on the spot. So I'll put you in a high-stake pressure situation. I'm going to ask you...

three of our questions from our really good conversations hack. So question number one, if you were a superhero, what would your superpower be?

It's a choice, like personal, what would I like to be? Yeah, I'd like to read minds.

Anything however you wanna add.

Steve
So I know what you're going to do because I've read your mind. And so I can do things proactively.

Fascinating. That would have been very useful back in your police career, I imagine. Question number two. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

Steve
Well, think that one of the things is words can change lives.

People dish out words and they put no value on them really, but you don't know what the impact is on other people. And so where you think might be funny, someone's taken it as a slight or, you know, taken seriously and you could change their lives. Conversely, you know, someone at the right time, give them some good advice. Same thing.

Amy

That is fantastic. Thank you for that. And question number three, if you came with a warning label, what would it say?

Steve

Can it be grumpy?

hahahaha

Amy
Brilliant, is fantastic.

And the final question I like to ask, all I guess, is if you could ask somebody, dead or alive, a question, who would it be and what would you ask them?

Steve

Hmm that are alive. Well, there's just so many questions, but I think it would be around You the end of the Second World War about the negotiations between the Allies in respect to How they were going to carve up Europe into the future and say, you know, what was the criteria? You know, what was the the basis of some of those decisions? Because it it really changed, you know history till now

Amy

I've never even thought of that as well. Well, thank you so much for everything you've shared today, Steve.

Where can people find out more about you, connect with you, and I'll include various links and such in the show notes.

Steve

Yep, so steveyork.com.au is the website.

Amy

Thank you so much for your time today.

Steve
Thanks very much.

Thanks for listening. I hope you enjoyed the episode. Be sure to check out the show notes for more information on today's guests and if really good conversations are your thing, hit subscribe and join us next time for more business journeys, insights and banter.