65. Intimacy, Desire and the Conversations Couples Avoid

 

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In this episode, Amy is joined by Isiah McKimmie to talk about intimacy, desire and the conversations couples often avoid. They explore why desire changes over time, how comparison and unrealistic expectations create pressure, and why focusing on what gets in the way of connection can be more helpful than trying to “do more”.

Overview

With Valentine’s Day approaching, this conversation looks beyond the romance and into the realities of long-term relationships; the conversations we avoid, the expectations we carry, and the quiet ways intimacy can start to feel harder over time.

Isiah shares what couples most commonly come to therapy for, and why the issue they arrive with is often only part of the picture. Together, Amy and Isiah explore why sex and intimacy feel so emotionally loaded, how avoidance can slowly erode connection, and why comparison often creates unnecessary pressure.

They also unpack how desire naturally fluctuates across a relationship, the role emotional and mental load play in intimacy, and why removing what blocks connection is often more powerful than trying to add more.

Key takeaways

    • Why the issue couples come to therapy with is often only part of what’s really going on

    • The conversations couples avoid most

    • Why changes in desire are normal across long-term relationships

    • The impact of emotional and mental load on intimacy and connection

    • Why improving intimacy often starts with removing what gets in the way, rather than trying to do more



Guest

Isiah McKimmie is a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection.

Website: https://isiah-mckimmie.com/

 

Transcript 

Amy: Welcome to the Really Good Conversations podcast.

Today I am joined by Isiah McKimmie, a clinical sexologist and relationship therapist who works with individuals and couples around intimacy, desire and connection. Welcome to the podcast. 

Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.

Amy: Thank you for joining me. And I'm so looking forward to this conversation because suddenly we are in February and February is supposed to be the month of love.

Valentine's Day is coming up and whether you're in a relationship or not, that could come with all of its different pros, cons, emotions. And I just thought this was a great time to have a conversation with someone like yourself and chat a little bit more about some of the sex, intimacy, the conversations we're avoiding perhaps in relationships as well. Firstly, before we jump in, what do you think of the world of Valentine's Day?

Isiah: So this is an interesting question. You've put me on the spot straight away. It's such an interesting time for relationships because we come through December and we see the most amount of breakups of any month of the year. And of course, so much strain on relationships. And then we come into January that has dating Sunday, the most number of sign-ups on, on dating apps. Everyone has a renewed hope for their relationships. And then we come into Valentine's Day. And for me, yes, it's lovely to celebrate love, but I think we should be doing this every month of the year and taking actions to strengthen our relationship every day of the year, not waiting for the one special day. So that is my, that is my tension point around it that We can't just wait for Valentine's Day to do the romantic things.

Amy: Yeah. And I feel the same when it comes to, know, Mother's Day, Father's Day and such. And then it is the pressure if you are a daughter or a son, or if you now have children of yourself and it's like, well, what are we doing on this day? And we do put this extra pressure on ourselves. Valentine's been one. And I don't know, it's funny when you're in a longer term relationship, you glaze over these dates a bit more as well.

Let's dive a little bit into your world. And when couples come to see you for therapy or guidance, what do they usually say the issue is?


Isiah: Yeah, so couples really show up to see me for all kinds of reasons. So I really work at the combination of couples therapy, relationship therapy, and also sexology. And so there's a really broad spectrum of challenges in there. Really the three biggest topics that people show up with are for a mismatch in sexual desire, usually because one person has noticed a drop in their desire levels over the course of the relationship and it's starting to cause confusion, anxiety or friction between the couple. They show up because they're in a cycle of arguments that they can't seem to resolve, bickering with each other, arguments going in circles, arguments starting over silly little things, and generally just feeling disconnected. as well. So couples feeling like they're growing apart, they still like each other, but they're wondering if they're becoming more like friends or housemates. they've kind of lost some of the connection and spark that, makes their relationship feel special.

Amy: And how often do you find what they come in asking for help with is perhaps not actually the issue that they're experiencing.

Isiah: Yeah, look, a lot of the time and the way myself and my team look at relationships is very holistically. So we have a lot of research and data that has been gathered over the past 50 years on what makes relationships really strong and lasting and what will predict the end of a relationship. And there are about 30 different factors that we actually measure for in the assessment stage of a relationship. And of course, if you haven't studied this, if no one has told you all the different things that we need to make or break a relationship, you're not gonna even know the things that you're doing that are really right necessarily. And you might be overlooking the things that are getting in the way. And I certainly see this when couples show up. with a mismatch in desire levels. And a lot of couples will say, this really the last piece of the puzzle. It's the only thing we generally have a really good relationship aside from this. And although that might be true when we start asking a few more questions, we often notice that there are some underlying challenges that have just been overlooked because they're just so busy, you know, getting on with life, all these things have kind of crept in slowly. And so that can be things like how the mental load is shared. can be how much time a couple is spending together during the day. It can be how much fun and playfulness they're having. Of course, also the way that they're communicating plays an enormous role in the relationship. And we know that it doesn't matter what couples are arguing about, it's how they're having those conversations together that makes the biggest difference for the success of their relationship.

Amy: Yeah. Gosh, and you touch on their conversations, which is obviously something that we're all about. And what do you find the hardest conversations couples are avoiding or struggle to have?

Isiah: Yeah, I think every couple will have their own hot button topic usually that they know is kind of heading into danger territory. The really common topics are around sex, around finances, around parenting and around housework and chores.

Amy: Yeah, definitely. And I definitely know sometimes if we're having, you know, Alex and I conversations, it might be getting to the end of the night, just as you're about to go to bed. And then Alex might bring up the topic of finances. And I think about literally tried to go to sleep. Now is not the time to get into a finance conversation.

Isiah: It's so tricky for couples who are so busy and who have children and are not getting privacy for so much of the day, but then you know that something's on your mind. We have really good data that shows couples who are more connected during the day are more likely to have conversations that go well at the end of the day. So for couples who've been disconnected, know, kind of ships passing in the night, they're off to work, they're busy, they get home. You know, they don't even really kind of see each other. They haven't actually checked in with each other. When one of them raises a sensitive topic, if that couple again is disconnected, that conversation is more likely to end with kind of tension or in a heated way afterwards. So it's part of why we want to make sure, at least I do as a couple's therapist, that I'm addressing a relationship holistically. And I'm giving couples tools so that they can strengthen their relationship holistically.

Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And why particularly the topic of sex and intimacy? Why does that feel so emotionally loaded?


Isiah: Sex is such a deeply personal, vulnerable experience. And it's a topic that most of us are not taught how to talk about. know, when, when we often think about growing up, for most of us, sex really wasn't discussed in our household. you know, we might've overheard awkward conversations. We might've got a tiny little bit of sex education, but we're not taught how to talk about it. openly, we're often not even taught the anatomically and physically correct words to use. So when we're not taught that as children and young adults, we are going to struggle with that later in life. and, and that's, you know, consequently what we see in a lot of couples and a lot of people will find it easier to actually have sex than to talk about it with their partner. so you know, showing up in therapy to finally open these topics around sex can feel really vulnerable, which is why actually therapy can also be really helpful because we can really hold couples and support them to have those difficult but really important and sometimes really good conversations.

Amy: Yeah, and wow, it's the same that kind of topic like money, know, when people, again, you may inherit this from their parents and it's like, you know, we don't talk about money, you know, that's crude to talk about, sort of sex is in that same vein.

Isiah: Absolutely, and there can be so much emotion around it. Embarrassment, shame, vulnerability. You know, sometimes it can feel like the success of the relationship is riding on the sexual component when it's become a heated issue between people and that makes it harder to talk about again. yeah, it makes so much sense that that this is tricky.

Amy: And what conversations do you think actually need to happen before couples talk about the topic of sex?

Isiah: So I always want to make sure that couples can talk about any topic well before they do this. And that means not using damaging communication techniques like criticism and blame and shaming a partner. We want to make sure that both people can share how they're feeling about it really well, that they can gently name their underlying needs around something, but that they can also listen and really try to understand their partner on this because so often both partners really have some deep and sensitive feelings about sex. A partner with lower desire is often feeling guilty and worried. about what it will mean for the relationship and they might try to avoid the conversation so they don't have to deal with it. A partner with a higher desire is often feeling rejected and hurt and angry, but underneath that often really sad and lonely. And so they also need to be able to find ways to express that really well, rather than going into again, criticism or starting conversations that would lead to conflict.

Amy: Yeah, gosh, that's great. And you've touched on already, you know, there's so much research and data in this space. And, you know, one thing that I saw you speak about recently was the research suggests that couples on average have sex about once a week. Yes. people hearing that, they might think, great, we're doing it more or we're doing it on the average or others are like, we're falling way below that. So firstly, where does this sort of data actually come from?

Isiah: There are people who work for universities who get to do large scale studies that study this, survey people, that do in-depth interviews. One of the couples therapy methods that I have learned has actually followed couples and kept updated with their relationship is and what's going in their life for about 20 years at a time. we're really lucky to have all of this data and I think often it can be really helpful because if we're just listening to what other people are saying or we're kind of watching the ideal out in the media, then any kind of comparisons to that are often going to be really unhelpful. So having some validated studies are enormously helpful for us to kind of work from and to inform us. Of course though, when we hear things like this is average, it is the average. And especially when it comes to things like the frequency of sex, I would always say to people, it is not about the amount, it's about finding what works for both of you in that and that you and your partner are somewhat aligned around that. It is normal for couples to have different desire levels and our desire levels will fluctuate over time, but we want to find some kind of balance together so that it doesn't become a point of tension and disconnection in a relationship.

Amy: Yeah, because I imagine those sort of averages or stats for people just living in the real world actually may feel quite unhelpful really or make them think they have a problem when they didn't have a problem. Do you think it's helpful for individuals?

Isiah: Look, there are times where I think it can be to have somewhat of a baseline to be able to say, okay, well, you know, actually, even though I might want sex three times a week, that actually isn't kind of the reality of what is going on. To hear that it fluctuates, I think can be really helpful. I have heard a story from a colleague who said she had a couple come in and they wanted to have sex more often, really common. They were having sex about once a year. And, you know, they were saying, we, yeah, we want to have it more often. But as she asked questions about it of why do you want to and how often would you want to, for them, that was all about what they had heard about it. And rather than what they what they really wanted. And so she was able to Really kind of say to them, if you are both happy with having sex once a year, that absolutely isn't a problem at all. But of course, if a couple's coming in and one person is saying, I'm feeling lonely and I'm feeling rejected and I'm feeling sad because we used to have sex really frequently. And now it's once a month or less. And it's a really important part of how I feel close to you and how I want to connect with you. Then there's something. for us to look out there about what might be getting in the way of that and how they can work together to strengthen firstly their relationship and then what they can do to find more alignment around sex.

Amy: And have you seen some common trends of what does change desire? You know, I imagine through somebody's, know, sexual lifespan, it is probably going to go in different peaks and troughs, if you will, for various reasons.

Isiah: Yeah. that will be so someone's desire level and the fluctuations in that will often be quite personal to them. So a really helpful way to think about this is as our desire being like a car. like sex drive, if you will. get a car moving, we need to add in accelerators, but we also need to remove brakes. And so sexual desire is really similar. We can't just focus on adding in accelerators, things like sex toys or lingerie or date nights, or, trying to just do it. For most people, a way to increase desire will actually be to remove the brakes that are getting in the way to look at what those are before they start looking at adding in accelerators. So some really common breaks would be tiredness and exhaustion, really common. for women particularly who have young children, sometimes hormonal changes that can cause pain and discomfort, worry that the kids will walk in, changed body image, someone not feeling good about themselves, someone not actually enjoying the sex they are having, someone feeling disconnected in their relationship, feeling overwhelmed with the mental load, feeling like their partner doesn't value. connecting with them and only want sex or feeling pressured to have sex. All of those things would be getting in the way and would often contribute to fluctuations in desire.

Amy: Yeah, that's a great answer. And I actually was going to ask a question, but I almost feel like you have answered it there to say if someone is feeling disconnected and wants to boost intimacy, where is a healthy place to start rather than just, yeah, going, have more sex. But you're highlighting actually consider what's happening and those perhaps breaks and blockers that are going on in your life.

Isiah: Yeah, and again, I think it's important to look at the relationship as a whole. So we use a method that I developed called the relationship harmony method in the therapy sessions and programs that we do. And it really looks at the four key areas and the four key steps that couples need to address for strong and harmonious relationship. We first need to look at vision and goals. It can be so easy for couples to get caught up on what's wrong and what isn't working, but looking for what you want to create together and looking for the positives in the relationship are a really important first step. We also want to build connection and friendship outside of the bedroom. So there's some of those things I mentioned before, like spending time together, going on date nights, having fun and playfulness together, making sure you feel respected by your partner. The next thing is communication, how you talk about difficult topics, how you handle conflict together, how you repair afterwards. And we have a lot of scripts and processes that we use couples to help do this, because if you are not able to do this well, as we talked about, that's going to impact everything. And I can't expect someone to feel in the mood in the bedroom if they're coming from a place of tension or they've just had an argument with someone. And then absolutely, we wanna look at sexual intimacy because sex is a beautiful and important and special part of an intimate partnership for most people. And so we wanna create all of the conditions we can for sex to feel alive and enjoyable for both partners and to be playful and to be something that both people look forward to. And yes, reducing those breaks and increasing accelerators are part of how couples can do that. But again, needs to fit into, it needs to fit into a whole.

Amy: Yeah, yeah, definitely. It's sort of a phrase that came to my mind when I was preparing for this podcast was that old phrase, sex, love and rock and roll. What comes to mind for you when you hear that phrase?

Isiah: It brings to mind how sex can be an alive and fun part of a relationship. I love it.

Amy: think for some, it does over romanticise perhaps intimacy in a way that does set some people up for feeling like they're going to fail because it's not electric alive and...

Isiah: I think there are so many things in our society and in our culture that make relationships so difficult for us. A lot of the unrealistic expectations that we have around, know, when you find the one, everything will just work. And, know, and that you won't need to put in that effort. You know, things like you won't actually need to communicate. during sex because it'll just happen the way it does in the movies and everyone will know exactly the right thing to do. I think there is so much that sets us up to be disappointed and often let down by relationships. And the reality is that relationships are hard. All relationships are hard. Intimate partnerships are especially hard and they do require our effort and attention. They often require us learning new tools and skills to help them thrive and they're things that so many of us really, really weren't taught. You know, and we're just doing the very best that we can. So we think, yeah, there is, there is a lot that we see that, that doesn't support us well in this area.

Amy: And what do you think is perhaps either something missing or a misconception about the stories we tell ourselves about, you know, long-term relationships, long-term love and connection?

Isiah: One of the things that is really important in my work is that desire can be sustained. You know, I think for a long time there was a story that sex just goes in a long-term relationship or when women get to a certain age or you know that couples just go through a period and then it's not important anymore. And we actually know and again through the research, following couples throughout their lives that intimacy and desire can be maintained, but there are certain steps that we need to take around that. So it's possible. And we know that women will often have a spike in their desire levels at any age if they get into a new relationship. And so for women, it's not that desire is over. It doesn't necessarily end with menopause. There are women who are having wonderful, enjoyable sex. well through menopause and beyond and actually say that their desire increases. So it's very, very dependent on the person, but to say that it can be, it really can be an ongoing part of a relationship.

Amy: Brilliant. Because yeah, I think that is what people sort of think, well, that, you know, you've been together forever, these things fade off and things like that. then people buy then into that narrative and story. And like you said, perhaps don't consider putting in the extra effort that we've been talking about. If someone listening is feeling seen by this conversation and wants an honest conversation, how would you encourage them to have it, to start to open the dialogue?

Isiah: Hmm. When you're opening up this conversation, it often really depends on how you think your partner will receive it and where the relationship is. think the important thing is to have the conversation. So we know that couples will often wait years from when they first start experiencing challenges to when they reach out for help and get support. And of course in that, and the average amount of time is seven years, in those seven years, disconnection and resentment build and it gets harder and harder to repair. So I will always encourage people to have the conversation early and to keep having the conversations, to keep checking in about how things are going. And if you do have feedback for your partner about... what you're feeling in the relationship and what you're missing. There's a few steps that I recommend to do that. And firstly, of course, we want to choose a good time. We wanna make sure that they have capacity. We wanna make sure that we're not about to rush out somewhere or hopefully not be interrupted in the middle of something. We wanna let them know our intentions for this because Most people will have good intentions with starting a conversation like this. The intention would be that this relationship is really important to me. And I want to talk about how we can make it better, how we can make sure it lasts for many years to come. So letting your partner know that, letting them know some of the positives to begin with as well. So they don't feel like they're being criticized or attacked. And then if there is something that You want to be different. We want to aim to be as specific as possible so that the person can understand it. And we want to speak using that really common eye language. And I know a lot of people will probably heard that speaking eye. So rather than you're not doing this, you know, I'm feeling this because these needs aren't being met. Can we talk about this? Can we look at what we can do on this together?

Amy: Yeah, brilliant. And I think hopefully that will just give some inspiration or thoughts to anyone listening. What do you wish more people understood earlier about intimacy?

Isiah: Ooh, about sexual intimacy or emotional intimacy?

Amy: both. You'll have to educate us on the, yes, the difference.

Isiah: Well, yeah, I mean, think for me, intimacy, I mean, is so much more than sex, but can include sex. You know, it's how much you know about someone, how much you allow yourself to be seen by them. You know, and sexual intimacy, I think, also goes beyond the act of sex. It's how physically affectionate you are with someone, how much you can allow that kind of sexual aliveness to show. around them, how much you feel comfortable talking about sex with them and sharing some of those inner sexual thoughts. One thing that I wish people knew more of around sex is that it's a skill that we can learn. And just like relationships, most of us weren't taught the skills for really wonderful, enjoyable sex. So much of our sex education focuses on what what not to do, how not to get pregnant, how not to catch an infection, rather than how to make sure that you're enjoying yourself, how to make sure your partner is enjoying yourself, rather than all of the different ways our bodies can experience orgasms or other pleasure, or that enjoyment and sexual intimacy doesn't even need to include penetration or orgasm. And that that we can learn all of these things. We can improve our education and we can learn really practical tools and skills that help both people enjoy it more.

Amy: Brilliant. Thank you so much. Now, before I put you on the spot with some of our really good conversation cards, I am also just going to ask you from your own journey, has there been a conversation in your life that has changed your direction in life?

Isiah: Gosh, that's an interesting question. One particular conversation.

Amy: Yeah, if you can think of anything, it might stand out.

Isiah: No, but I will say through my psychotherapy training and through my intimacy training, I have really learned to have conversations on a deeper level. I suppose this is what we do as therapists. We're helping guide the people we're working with into thinking about things in a different way, in a deeper way, getting to the root cause of what's going on. And those conversations are often really vulnerable. And so as part of the training that I went through to learn how to help other people do that, that is reflected in my own life and in the conversations I have with my own friends and, my own lovers and, you know, and the people that I meet. So I don't think I, I go back to one particular conversation, but that I've learned a new, a new quality of conversations that. that has changed a lot for me.

Amy: brilliant, fantastic. Well I'm now going to ask you three questions from our card. Question number one, what would you say your greatest strength is?

Isiah: Right. I am incredibly patient.

Amy: Not many people are, I don't think.

Isiah: Really, yeah, that is something that I have come to learn about myself through the course of therapy in particular and with couples therapy. And yeah, and absolutely, I would say that I am.

Amy: Brilliant! Question number two. How has your life turned out differently to what you had expected?

Isiah: my goodness, just completely. I would never have imagined why I didn't even know such a thing as a sex therapist and sexologist existed growing up. This could never have been something that I would have imagined for myself.

Amy: And as we touched on before, yeah, sex and things like that weren't really, aren't really talked about with parents around the dinner table. So yeah, you wouldn't have known, that's what I'm going to be when I grow up,

Isiah: Absolutely not and probably would not have been encouraged either, you know, if your child came home and said that.

Amy: Yeah, question number three. What is one piece of wisdom you want to pass on to future generations?

Isiah: that the quality of our relationships impacts almost every measurable area of our health and wellbeing. And so by improving the quality of our relationships, by learning about our skills, ourselves, by getting tools and skills and practicing doing that better, often with support, if we need to, we can improve our health. and wellbeing and longevity. But if we have children, those benefits then also get passed on to them.

Amy: Wow, yes, that is a powerful reminder. Thank you. And the finishing question I like to ask all of our guests is if you could ask someone a question dead or alive, who would it be and what would you ask them?

Isiah: I would absolutely ask my grandmother and I think I find it really hard to talk about it without being, becoming emotional around it. I don't know the question that I would ask her. I just know that if I had the chance to ask one more question and to hear from her, I would, I would do that.

Amy: that's beautiful. Thank you so much for sharing and thank you for everything that you have shared today. It honestly has been amazing just to hear not only what you see from couples, but again, you've shared a lot of great advice and tips inadvertently as we've chatted that I think people could hopefully take away quite a few positive nuggets for, know, in their own lives and relationships. So, no, I really do appreciate everything you've shared. And if you'd like to just tell our guests where they can find out more about you, perhaps what you've got coming up in 2026 as well.

Isiah: So absolutely. And thank you so much for having me. It is always such a privilege to share on these topics that I know can make such a difference and that we so often don't get to talk about. 

So I'm very, very easy to find online. There are not any other Isiah McKimmie out there. So by searching Isiah McKimmie, you will find me on Instagram where I share a lot of information and tools and advice. And you can find my website where we have some free resources and some introductory tools. can also find out about doing therapy with myself and my team. And the really exciting thing that I have coming up this year is we are launching romantic weekends away for couples with the first one being on the Gold Coast at the end of March. They're a Friday night to Sunday. weekend for a number of couples at a time where they get time to relax. There are fun, playful activities that bring them closer. And you'll also hear me talk about more of the things that we spoke about today. So you can also take away some tools and skills for your relationship and get benefits long after the weekend finishes.

Amy: That's brilliant, exciting times ahead and I wish you all the best with those. Thank you. And thank you very much.


Isiah: Thank you so much for having me, Amy.